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Comments for clone-debian

10 Apr 2001 09:43 longshot6

Re: dpkg --get-selections, dpkg --set-selections

> dpkg already has similar
> functionality... Why it is better?


Hello Balazs,

To try to answer your question, it isn't intended to be

better than dpkg --get-selections and dpkg

--set-selections, it is meant to be an extension of

those commands. In fact they are pretty much the

reason for clone-debian's existance, and the utility

pretty much surrounds their usage. The script doesn't

do much moe than what could be done by entering

several commands on each system. But I put quite a bit

of time figuring out to get it to do what it does

conviently with a floppy disk. The comment I posted

above about clone-debian being of some use to single

computer owners should taken into account.

Clone-debian is also mostly just an idea I came up

with to give me some purpose while learning how to do

bash shell scripting. Since it is my first real bash script I

was hoping that the idea would be good enough

something that may be of use somehow to others. It

may not be much to look at and a little messy since it is

my first venture into any kind of programming. It's still a

work in progress though! I have found a couple more

bugs to fix and have actually gotten a couple of very

minor feature requests which is probably about all that I

can handle. But, I thought it may perhaps be useful to

people that don't have the time to learn or write a bash

shell script or program of their own, whilst I learn, and

write it. I also thought there may be many folks out

there who are new to Debian and/or Linux in general

that do not know the above mentioned dpkg command

options and or be dpkg savy, but understand what

cloning the package state of their Debian system. To

elaborate, the following is some e-mail that I received

and then made reply's to....

Fred Wrote:

I sent you a message a day or two ago, and here is

another.

[oops! please add your email address to *every*

place you sign

your name; I cannot find it; and I am very tired; I

am going to

look.... but I wish it were easier ... OK, I found your

email

address; but in the future, please make it easier ... ]

Here is a long, complex sources.list file that you might

adapt for an

examples directory (no one besides me will want this

exact file; but

you can adapt it).

Hello Bob,

Thanks for suggestions. I really appreciate your input.

I'm sorry to say I

missed your the first e-mail you sent a day or two ago.

If you still have it

can you send it again please? I would like to know

what other idea/suggestion

it contained.

I am still learning a lot about Debian/GNU Linux and all

it's commands, as

you can probably tell from my script. I will have to learn

some more advanced

sytax options of grep and other commands. The

sample sources.list you gave

does look pretty complex too! At first glance I would

need to fill in the

blanks from your templete I take it? I'm not even sure

what the egrep command

given below does exactly, although I know what a

couple of the options are

for. This is why I started clone-debian though, to give

me a purpose in

learning some of this more in depth.

By the way, version 0.3 was terrible in the way I was

trying to have it parse

the output of dselect/dpkg errors. Get 0.4! I hope it

fixes the problem. You

probably already knew how to accompish what my

script does yourself manually.

I just wanted to say that I was trying to make my tiny

little script do it

for people not familiar with the commands, and maybe

make the process a

little easier for people that do know the commands but

don't have the time

to take to write their own. I do only have so much time

to work on it myself,

it's a spare time project. Would you happen to know

how I could go about

making it into a .deb package using the dpkg-deb

command? I'm trying to learn

what I need to do to make the debian/rules control file.

I want to thank you very much for e-mailing me with

you input. I'm hoping you

can e-mail me your original a second time. The

sample sources.list you sent

looks like it might be a bit of work in itself. I will have a

look at it.

Hope to hear from you again.

Thanks,

Jimmy Richards

Thanks for suggestions. I really appreciate your

input. I'm sorry

to say I missed your the first e-mail you sent a day

or two ago. If

you still have it can you send it again please?

No problem; I've appended it.

... The sample sources.list you gave does look pretty

complex too!

At first glance I would need to fill in the blanks from

your

templete I take it?

Actually, you could probably use it more or less as is. It

is just a

list of fairly well known apt sites.

I'm not even sure what the egrep command given

below does exactly,

> # Use the command egrep -v '#|^ *$'

/etc/apt/sources.list

> # to see what options are active in this file.

The `-v' option selects lines that do not match the

regular

expression. So the command lists all lines that do

*not* either have

a sharp sign as their first character or are blank lines

(i.e.,

contain zero spaces followed by an end of line or start

with one or

more spaces followed by an end of line).

...Would you happen to know how I could go about

making it into a

.deb package using the dpkg-deb command?

No, I don't. I have never had time to do anything like

that.

Also, I just discovered another program to install

Debian on multiple

machines. I don't know anything about it, merely that it

exists:

`Replicator': install Debian on multiple machines

http://replicator.sourceforge.net/

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/replicator/replicator-2.0.tgz

75755 kb

http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/replicator/replicator_2.0.deb

130,706 kb

I have no idea how Replicator works, or if it is any

good. You might

be able to adapt some ideas from it.

Here is a copy of the message I sent you earlier:

Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 13:13:35 -0400

Fred Wrote:

Subject: clone-debian 0.3

I am reading the script for clone-debian 0.3.

It looks like a very useful application. Recently I met a

fellow who

is going to teach people at the local Goodwill to

refurbish old

computers and hope to persuade him to install Debian

on them.

clone-debian will be the tool.

Here are several comments on the shell script:

* The script asks:

echo "Is this system currently a potato system?"

I myself am running a potato system upgraded to

testing. Does

this count as a potato system or not? Please be

more clear.

Why do you ask this question? Please tell the user

right away.

That way, I will be less confused.

Please specify the distribution number as well as the

code name.

Some people know distributions by their code name;

others by

number. You need to cater to both.

2.0 is hamm

2.1 is slink

2.2 is potato (This also includes the potato

security releases.)

2.3 is woody

2.4 is cid

Also, some people think in terms of `stable', `testing',

and

`unstable'. You might mention those, but for a

*specified* date:

Is this system currently a Debian 2.2, potato

system (i.e.,

the stable distribution as of 2001 Apr 8), and not

either a

Debian 2.1, slink system or a Debian 2.3, woody

system (i.e.,

the testing distribution as of 2001 Apr 8).

* When you ask

echo "Are you upgrading to a newer distribution of

debian?"

what do you mean? Every morning I run

apt-get update

apt-get dist-upgrade

Each morning, therefore, my distribution becomes a

bit newer -- if

only because of security updates in stable (but also

because

testing carries newer versions, too.)

Please explain why you are asking this question and

what the

implications are.

For example, are you going to tell me that I can

snapshot my

current working system (today's testing) and then

upgrade to

unstable; and then, if I find that unstable breaks

everything (as

it has done several times in the past), I can

downgrade to my

snapshot; and do this easily?

Or are you saying that I can use this in place of

`apt-get

dist-upgrade' to go from Debian 2.1 to Debian 2.2.

If so, why

should I? `apt-get dist-upgrade' has worked great

for me.

* Please shorten your lines, where feasible, to 70

characters. This

makes them *much* easier to read. For example,

you could shorten

this line in your excellent # --- User input variables

--- section

from

# distro = is this a potato system? the

'apt.conf' file is in a different location and has a

different name on potato, on woody or newer it's called

'70debconf'

to

# distro = Is this a Debian 2.2 potato

system?

# (Note that the configuration file is

in

# /etc/apt/apt.conf in a Debian 2.2

# potato, but is in

# /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70debconf on a

# Debian 2.3 woody, or newer

system.)

By the way, my rewording of your comment is how I

interpreted what

you read, after reading the shell script code. When I

first read

the wording in the comment, I thought you meant

that all

distributions each had a different location. I hope I

got it right!

* The script makes a backup of /etc/apt/sources.list

with this

command.

cp -f /etc/apt/sources.list

/etc/apt/sources.list.clone-debian

This is fine as it goes, but you will produce an even

safer back

up if you also use the -b option, to back up the

backup.

* The script asks:

echo "Do you want to use a modified 'install' file

that makes dpkg"

echo "do --force-overwrite, --force-conflicts

and"

echo "--force-depends? The original will be

returned"

echo "if you press CTRL-C or let the script

complete."

echo "[Recommended for upgrading purposes

only]"

Please explain the dangers of doing this. Would I

want to do this

for a (most likely temporary) upgrade to unstable?

Would I want to do this if I am currently running

testing and am

merely upgrading to whatever is new this morning?

Would I want to do this if I am currently running the

stable

potato and am upgrading my security using the

Debian 2.2r2 potato

As is, the question is very confusing and makes me

worry.

* The script says:

echo "#2"

echo "When 'dselect install' has an error and

ask's you to Hit Enter to"

echo "continue, make sure to hit enter twice, not

just once. Again,"

echo "if necessary."

This is confusing. Do I press enter four times if

hitting twice

does not do the job, or do I press enter a third time

if hitting

twice fails? Does it matter if I press enter more than

3 or 4

times? Is the only requirement that I press enter *at

least*

twice?

Also, please note that `hit' is a fine word for young,

male geeks,

but you are being unfriendly towards those who

associate hitting

with what they have to prevent their young children

from doing or

with what happened to them when the police beat

them up. Please

be friendly to a wider audience.

* The script says:

echo "Do you want to run the 'dselsect install'

again? [Default = y]"

Please explain more: tell people whether running

'dselsect

install' again is *dangerious* and might screw

everything up, or

whether it is safe to do so. (Remember, you have

told people in

your warning that this script may well cause them to

lose

*everything*. Is this one of those dangerous

actions? Or can

they run 'dselsect install' any number of times, with

no more

danger running it twice or three times as once? Is it

more likely

that if they run 'dselsect install' twice or three times

that the

new system will be properly installed?

* You included an image of yourself in the distribution,

JIMMY.jpg

81,599 bytes. I enjoyed looking at it, but the action

is mean to

people who pay for their download time by the

minute.

Many people overseas pay by the minute, as do

some people in the

United States. A good friend of mine, for example,

has

residential local telephone service. In many parts of

the US, the

telephone company charges a monthly fixed fee for

unlimited use.

Not where she lives. She has no choice. She has

to pay by the

byte for any download. You are imposing a cost on

her.

You are imposing a bigger cost on someone in, say,

Cameroon, in

Africa. (I pick Cameroon because I know a fellow

there who favors

software freedom.)

It would be good to see more people in Africa using

Debian rather

than Microsoft Windows 98. (Some can get hold of

tossed out

machines from companies in the US and Europe.)

As a practical matter, Microsoft Windows 98 costs

the same for

them as a Debian distribution, since they never pay

license fees.

Morover the w98 distribution offers partial benefits:

they can run

a computer. Of course, the w98 distribution also

offers crashes

and takes away users' freedom to study source

code, modify it, and

redistribute it. Your imposition of an unnecessary

cost makes it

harder to encourage freedom.

All, in all, this looks like a useful script. I hope you

develop it

more. If all goes well, I am hope to teach a fellow to

use it to

install Debian on hundreds of refurbished computers

rather than the

proprietory system for which he has got an OEM

license.

(Incidentally, this fellow, or rather the organizations he

sets up,

buys used computers by the ton -- I have never

thought of purchasing

computers like that.)

On Tuesday 10 April 2001 04:51, Betsy wrote:

I've made a mistake and upgraded a potato box to

unstable.

> What I wanted was to upgrade to woody and now I

realize that woody ==

> testing.

>

> Is it possible to do a dist-upgrade from unstable to

testing.

> Can expect to not reload all packages (is there a lot

of common packages

> between testing and unstable?)?

>

> Thanks,

> Betsy

Those e-mails give me some things to consider.

Now, how does clone-debian extend the dpkg

commands? It does so by just trying to make them a

little easier to use in my opinion. For instance, say on a

source system, it automatically detects whether or not

you already have a floppy disk mounted upon running

it. If you do not wish to use the currently mounted

floppy, it umounts it and then one can be mounted on

the default mount point by simply pressing Enter. The

sources.list file copied over to the floppy if you want by

simply pressing Enter. Of course the packages file is

put on the floppy upon creation. On the target system,

same deal with floppy detection. The sources.list file is

automatically detected and if it exists, you are promted

whether or not you want it copied over, which is done

just by pressing enter. If 'upgrading to a newer

distribution' of Debian, it first gets and installs(with

apt-get) several newer packages that "I" deemed

necessary(for lack of a better word at the moment) to

be installed before continuing(and there may be a

couple more that should be added). I found they help

dpkg from having quite so many errors during the

installation of the remaining hundreds and hundreds of

packages that I have it install. Also, many people I

have come across have wondered how you can get

apt-get to use --force options that dpkg uses. Those

options can be used by apt-get by placing a perl code

entry into the proper config file if you have debconf

installed, /etc/apt/apt.conf for potato and,

/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70debconf for woody and sid. My

utilty makes use of the --force options by

automatically dectecting which config file you have,

then inserting the perl code into it. This is what I would

consider most of the major features of clone-debian,

but here are a few others. It took me quite a bit of time

to figure this all out and make it work properly. And

there still are a few bugs to work out. Like I found out

there is a problem when you enter a mount point

manually(rather by using the default by pressing enter)

and it contains a forward slash on the trailing end.

Debugging, I guess that's part of the joy of bash shell

scripting, or whatever kind of programmming.

Well, I hope this helps anyone who was kind of

wondering what clone-debian is all about. I feel the

question has been asked and answered, at any rate.

Sincerely,

Jimmy Richards

10 Apr 2001 06:42 dlux

dpkg --get-selections, dpkg --set-selections
dpkg already has similar functionality... Why it is better?

30 Mar 2001 21:18 longshot6

Single Computer Owners
Hello,

I just wanted to included that clone-debian can be useful for users of only a single computer. It saves you're current package state on a floppy disk, then if you should need to re-install from scratch you can easily get back to having the same packages that you had installed. That is as long as they can be retrieved from a sources.list file.

Enjoy,

Jimmy Richards

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